PAMELA GELLER IN HER OWN WORDS: INTERVIEW BY THE NEW YORK TIMES
Pamela Geller: In Her Own Words
The following are excerpts from an interview with Pamela Geller, a conservative blogger who has been vocal in opposition to the Islamic center and mosque to be built near ground zero. Anne Barnard and Alan Feuer interviewed Ms. Geller on Sept. 28, 2010.
Ms. Geller on whether she is a leader in the fight over the planned Muslim center:
PAMELA GELLER I didn’t choose this moment; this moment chose me in that you decided that I was responsible, which is so amusing to me. I’ve been doing what I’ve been doing for years. I update the blog 10, 15 times a day. I treated the ground zero mosque story the way I treat every other story. To me it was an outrage, to me it was deeply offensive, to me it was indicative that interfaith dialogue and mutual respect and mutual understanding is a one-way street with Islamic supremacists, not Muslims. I believe that Muslims are more victimized by Islamic supremacists than even non-Muslims. But I covered it the way I covered any other story.
ALAN FEUER Do you consider yourself at this point a, or the, or one of the leaders of this fight against the mosque?
PAMELA GELLER No. No.
ALAN FEUER Why not?
PAMELA GELLER Because I think that I’m giving voice to the voiceless. But how am I a leader? Look, there is no way that I have a magical power wherein 70 percent of the American people are opposed to this mosque. It’s demeaning and it’s condescending to the individual, for you — not you, sir — for someone to say that.
Now someone somewhere decided that we’re going to make it about her and we’re going to demonize her and marginalize her and call her a racist Islamophobic anti-Muslim bigot so that anybody that agrees with her is a racist Islamophobic anti-Muslim bigot. But you know what? Maybe it’s because all the Tea Partiers were called racists, or because it’s been tried too many times, it’s just not sticking. Maybe it’s sticking on the left, but the chattering classes and the political elites do not represent the American people. Not at all. And you’ve lost their trust, which I think is the absolute worst thing.
Ms. Geller on what motivates her:
ANNE BARNARD So you sleep from 4:30 to 7:30?
PAMELA GELLER Yeah, yeah. I sleep from 4:30 to 7:30 or 4 o’clock to 7 o’clock or 4 o’clock to 8 o’clock, but that’s really my window of sleep. I just do it. Now if the couple of times where for whatever reason I didn’t do that, let’s say I’m with my kids. I can sleep till 11 o’clock. It’s not like, oh, maybe you’re an insomniac and you’re doing this because you can’t sleep. Believe me, that’s so not my problem. Whenever my head hits that pillow, I am down, I am down. So it just necessitates it and it’s enormously interesting. It’s not a labor for me in that I will not complain to you and say, “Ugh.” I do love what I’m doing.
I feel as if I am doing something that must be done. I’m making an important contribution in the information battle space, because that’s where we are now. You know, it really is a war of ideas and it’s important. That’s why the free-speech issue for me is everything. It’s the line in the sand; it is the difference between peace and war, because with freedom of speech, peaceful men can effect change. Without freedom of speech, peaceful men have no choice but to resort to violence. You have no alternative. Freedom of speech is the line in the sand.
And that’s why when I see the press, I see this self-imposed Shariah. And it’s Shariah: do not defame Islam, do not insult Islam.
Ms. Geller’s definition:
ANNE BARNARD Just to be completely clear, so you’re saying if someone is a devout Muslim, meaning if he or she is practicing and believing in the tenets of Islam, they cannot in your view be a political moderate?
PAMELA GELLER No.
ANNE BARNARD O.K., I just wanted to make sure we didn’t get tripped up in grammar.
PAMELA GELLER No.
ALAN FEUER And double negatives.
ANNE BARNARD Yeah, exactly.
PAMELA GELLER No, no, they can’t. Now I also believe that a true translation, an accurate translation of the Koran, is really not available in English, according to many of the Islamic scholars that I’ve spoken to. That’s deeply troubling. And I don’t think that many westernized Muslims know when they pray five times a day that they’re cursing Christians and Jews five times a day. I don’t think they know that.
ALAN FEUER Right. So you believe in the idea of a moderate Muslim, if not…
PAMELA GELLER Oh, I absolutely … Oh, I believe in the idea of a moderate Muslim. I do not believe in the idea of a moderate Islam.
ANNE BARNARD What would be a moderate Muslim then?
PAMELA GELLER I think a moderate Muslim is a secular Muslim.
Ms. Geller’s view on the changing characterization of the Muslim center at ground zero:
PAMELA GELLER That it wasn’t accidental. The morphing mosque narrative. You need to point. You can’t just say it’s a morphing mosque narrative. You can’t just say that; you have to prove it by saying first it’s a mosque — no, no, no, it’s not a mosque, it’s not a mosque, it’s a prayer pace. So then you have a screen shot calling it a mosque on Cordoba. And then it’s — but a prayer space is a mosque. And then I would be on the —
And they would say it’s about healing and it’s about helping the victims. And I’d say, well, you know, if it was really about healing, why isn’t it a shrine dedicated to the victims of 9/11 or the 270 million victims of over a millennium of jihadi wars, land appropriations, cultural annihilations and enslavements? So they’d say, oh, now we’re going to have a shrine. It kept on morphing. You don’t know what’s going to be in there. I’m just telling you that right now. I’m not trying to sound cynical; they can put anything they want in there because they have every right to, and I stand for that right, just so that you know.
But when he says it’s going to be an Islamic center and I hear him at the Hawke Ministerial Center in Australia extolling the works of Sheikh Qaradawi — in his own words in audio on my site he’s extolling the works of Qaradawi and Tantawi — is that the kind of speakers, is that the kind of Islamic center it’s going to be? That’s deeply troubling. Is there a more notorious America-hater, West-hater, Jew hater than Sheikh Qaradawi? So yes, it’s a morphing mosque narrative and it keeps changing and the media keeps changing with it. They will bring, “You said Malcolm X…” I never said it but that’s always how I’m introduced.
But here’s a man who the name of this mega-mosque — and that’s what it is, a 15-story mosque — there are other mosques and you never heard me complain about it, I — Know the remarks? — they never heard me say anything about the other mosques named Cordoba, which is iconic of Islamic conquest on the West, and please don’t tell me it was a golden age; I’m just not there. I’m not there. Christians and Jews were living under dhimmitude, denied basic human rights; it was the site of the first Jewish pogrom, slaughtered 4,000 Jews, there were two pogroms against the Jews there. All I’m saying is don’t spit in my face and tell me it’s raining.
Ms. Geller refers to the landing gear of one of the 9/11 planes, found at the site of the planned mosque:
PAMELA GELLER You guys ran the landing gear —
ANNE BARNARD Yes, yes.
PAMELA GELLER — that I held up at all my rallies, thank you very much. That was the — for me that landing gear was the seminal moment, it was the — the landing gear is in the building? God, it gives you the chills. I mean the Japanese could build a Shinto shrine at Pearl Harbor; they never asked. They would never ask. It’s just wrong. It’s not about right or this. Nobody is saying all Muslims would do it. Hardly. But so many moderate Muslims — again, the media doesn’t really put them out there — so many moderates write to me and say it’s absolutely wrong.
Even the cabdriver who was slashed, the Muslim cabdriver, by a pro-mosque supporter, who had an affiliation to Park51, who worked for Park51, the cabdriver said the mosque is wrong. That story did not get the ink it should have gotten because, A, it wasn’t someone who was against the mosque. If it was someone that was against the mosque, forget about it, I’d be hanging. I’d be hanging in Union Square. Yeah. Whatever.
Ms. Geller on Islamic law in the United States:
ANNE BARNARD So do you really think that creeping Shariah is the biggest danger to America right now?
PAMELA GELLER No. The biggest danger to America? No. Do I think it’s a big danger? Yeah. Am I worried about it for tomorrow? No. Is that how it happens? No. It’s a drip, drip, drip, drip, drip. The mosque-ing of the workplace where you’re imposing prayer times on union contracts, non-Muslim workers have to lengthen their day: it’s wrong. And in places like Greeley and in Marshall, in Colorado, the media doesn’t report on it, but they’ve come to fisticuffs, there’s been rioting. The non-Muslim workers, they’re mainly Hispanics, they don’t want to lengthen their day.
The thing is: I don’t care if you worship a stone; just don’t stone me with it. These demands are a way of imposing Islam on a secular society. Asking for prayer space in public schools for Muslim children is imposing Islam. If the child is religious, send them to madrassa. If you don’t want to handle meat that’s not halal, don’t become a cashier at Target or Wal-Mart. If you want to wear the hijab, don’t work at Disney.
ALAN FEUER Do you detect a level of coordination behind this?
PAMELA GELLER No. Yeah, yes. The level of coordination is Shariah, is the Koran. This is living under Islamic law. It’s not that there’s a — look, I guess there’s conspiracy theory and there’s conspiracy fact. And clearly the global jihad, the installation of a universal caliphate, is the objective of a great many Islamic supremacists who make no secret of it.
Separation of Mosque and State
Islam in European politics:
PAMELA GELLER I understand what you’re saying and I have no problem with the identity politics. Honestly, I have no problem with hijab, I have no problem with burqa, I have no problem with purple hair. I don’t care. What I’m saying is the separation of mosque and state needs vigilance, that’s what I’m saying. And all you need to do is look at the current global map and the historical evidence to see what happens when you get these increased demands to Islam. Now, depending upon the region. The Middle East was once a Christian region, and look at all the Muslim countries that are living under the Shariah.
Look at even in Europe, the Islamization of Europe, you cannot ignore it. You cannot ignore the fact that there are no-go zones, where the police cannot go in France, cannot go in England, the fire department cannot go. When they go, it’s a trick, it’s an ambush many times. And there are no-go zones and the rule of law is the Shariah.
So what are we talking about? What are we looking at, if we can look past our watches in 10 years, 20 years? What are you looking at? Are you looking at reverting to city-states in Europe? I’m serious. This is not static. You think that where we are right now is where we’re going to be?
ALAN FEUER No, of course not.
PAMELA GELLER Of course not. So yes, I look at Europe and I’m concerned. I think the first country that will be Islamic in Europe will be the U.K. They already have introduced the Shariah law into their judicial system. And again you’ll say, “So what’s wrong with that?” What’s wrong with adjudicating family disputes and, and I say to you it’s always incrementally. The fact that welfare benefits in the U.K. go to multiple wives. If you have multiple wives, you get multiple benefits. Why would you encourage polygamy? I know it’s happening in America, the polygamy, but so far I have not heard of multiple benefits, and if I have, it’s not a matter of law, it’s not a sanctioned entitlement.
And so freedom of speech is in jeopardy. Religious freedom under the Shariah does not exist, and while it all may sound outlandish, you’ll wake up one day, you won’t recognize your own country. I have no problem with Islam. I have a problem with a political Islam. And I’ll say it once, I’ll say it 100 times that the separation of mosque and state needs to be maintained, and it’s not as simple as you’d think. Because you see a little kid and he wants to pray, you give him a prayer space. You’re not thinking. I mean, I see the face, I’m a mother. But I do. One’s not thinking in terms of precedent.
The “ground zero mosque” as a symbol of conquest:
ANNE BARNARD And that’s when you called it a mega-mosque, because of the size?
PAMELA GELLER Yeah. I’ll call it a monster mosque too. It is. It is. And you cannot discount or avoid the fact that it is an Islamic pattern to build triumphal mosques on the cherished sites of conquered lands. Now you could say to me, “Do you really believe that this?” I am telling you that is how it will be perceived in the Muslim world, period. What one schmuck on Broadway thinks is irrelevant. It will be iconic to the jihad. It will be the icon, it will be the icon.
You know, they’re finding on these jackets of the guys coming across the border, these jihadis, on their jackets they have these badges with the towers. It’ll be that. Mecca on the Hudson.
ANNE BARNARD So you don’t feel that every mosque is a monument to…? Not every mosque symbolizes Islamic victory but it would on that spot?
PAMELA GELLER No, yeah. I think the Dome of the Rock does. Why build a mosque on top of the very first temple, the holiest site in Jewish history? The very first temple, not to the right? You’re going to tell me that’s not conquest? You’re going to tell me that Saint Sophia, the most beautiful, exquisite, extraordinary church in the world, is not conquest? Is that what you’re going to tell me? I’m giving you glaring examples, but this has happened thousands and thousands of times.
On Israel and the Vlaams Belang, a Flemish nationalist party that emerged from the Vlaams Blok, banned in 2004 for “repeated incitement to discrimination”:
PAMELA GELLER … Now do I see everything through the prism of Israel? No, I don’t, but I do think it’s a very good guide. It’s a very good guide because, like I said, in the war between the civilized man and the savage, you side with the civilized man. And so I have not seen anything of Vlaams Belang that I’ve had a problem with before then, from then to now. I haven’t seen it. If you don’t lay down and die for Islamic supremacism, then you’re a racist anti-Muslim Islamophobic bigot. That’s really what we’re talking about.
ANNE BARNARD You’re a racist?
PAMELA GELLER You’re a racist-Islamophobic-anti-Muslim-bigot. And it’s one word.
ANNE BARNARD Right, right, you always say it very fast.
PAMELA GELLER Because I’m always called that. I learned that by the hard way.
ANNE BARNARD A racist-Islamophobic-anti-Muslim-bigot?
PAMELA GELLER Yeah.
ANNE BARNARD I’ll have to practice saying it.
PAMELA GELLER Yeah, if you get called it enough it’ll be second nature to you.
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